I will second After Hours. For a comedy I remember experiencing more anxiety and fear than I expected. It’s a classical comedy since at the end everything gets back to normal.
I don't know where you live, Sonny. But, I will say that if you have access to Woods Comfort Systems, they have always treated us well. Sorry for your situation, it sounds like a nightmare. And here there be hot.
Barbie is one of the most intellectual screenplays I have ever seen. If you don't get it; it's probably because you don't have a clue about the history of women or feminism. Sad for you.
LA Times had a great review of Barbie that says everything much better than I can. I loved how they ended their write-up:
“ 'Barbie' kicks up trouble by suggesting that women’s journey to self-actualization may include some mileage by men, especially if they also have brains and emotions and ambitions to be more than speed bumps in somebody else’s story. This movie, which allegedly hates men, sure enjoyed giving them a lot of emotional and dramaturgical real estate in the climactic act, including a Gene Kelly-esque dance number. 'I’m just Ken,' Gosling’s Ken croons in the movie’s showstopper number. 'Anywhere else I’d be a 10. Is it my destiny to live and die a life of blond fragility?' Anybody with enough self-respect to ask the question is on their way to an answer other than yes. "
I'm a boomer and I loved Barbie. It's smart, and funny as hell and entertaining. Most of the jokes land and the casting, choreography and set design are outstanding. There are stories and character arcs that surprise you--when was the last time a movie actually did something you didn't expect? Margo Robbie and Ryan Gosling couldn't be better--really, they nailed the entire cast.
I can't believe you wrote, "I hope the sequel is about Ken. Now there’s a character whose interior life is pretty interesting …" I read this and think we saw a completely different version of the movie. The Kens in Barbie have such a wonderful arch--it not only parallels what women have gone through since forever, it shows how men are damaged by patriarchy too. I also look at the right-wing freak out about masculinity and think only people who haven't seen the movie, or people who keep their eyes shut when anything challenges their preconceived beliefs can think it was man-hating.
By the end, men and women embrace the entirety of themselves, regardless of gender roles, celebrating masculinity and femininity as traits that can be cherished in either gender. What a great message.
It not a perfect movie, I know you liked this, but I thought all the Will Farrell parts could be cut with very little determinate to the final product. I'm also not happy that we'll now get dozens of Mattel branded movies that won't come anywhere close to this, but judging Barbie on its merits alone I give the overall experience 4.5 stars.
Just finished watching it. Your review is spot on! It sounds like it was written by someone who actually understands nuance and has a good sense of the complexity about gender roles and stereotypes that occur in patriarchal societies and why a lot if it is harmful (for all genders) but it also touches on the new problems created by feminism’s attempt to fix the issues of the past. Nothing here is simple or what it seems.
If you’re thinking about whether not to see it, listen to JoyousNM and skip Sonny’s original review which is “horribly wrong but still interesting to read”. It paints the movie as “a 2 hour long ad for a Mattel doll which is bad enough but the jokes weren’t even all that funny for a comedy!” He agrees that you might like it if you’re a ‘progressive-minded working mom millennial type that wants to be reassured that’s it’s still OK to buy your kid a Barbie but otherwise you you’d probably hate it. Like Joy, I honestly wonder if we both saw the same film!
Just saw it yesterday with the family. I liked it and am a progressive-minded working dad X'er type with a son and daughter who were never into Barbie. Maybe that first marker is necessary for enjoyment (and if so, go society!), but there is a lot to like about that movie.
And those offended by it are telling a hell of a lot about themselves, because I didn't find it particularly super feminist rather than fairly accurate about how things are. I might quibble that we've made more progress than is shown, but not a lot more, and that's kinda the point. And again, if that issue is an existential threat to a person rather than a mild quibble, well its rather telling.
I read Cary Elwes' book about filming The Princess Bride and he said that Robin Wright didn't get enough credit for her performance because people didn't understand how hard it was for her to be "the straight man" in a movie that contained all these outlandish characters and lines and scenarios. She didn't have any of the "quotable" lines from the movie really, but without her performance the whole movie would have fallen apart. It wouldn't have been grounded in anything.
I think Margot Robbie's performance is the same thing. She did a spectacular job and while Ryan Gosling's performance is flashier that doesn't make it "better" necessarily. Because without Robbie grounding every scene she's in, The Kens and Alan and the more outlandish Babries wouldn't seem funny at all. Margot Robbie never steals the scene, but she makes every funny scene in that movie possible by being the heart of the movie. Ken's funniest moments, the Mattel board room, America's monologue, and Rhea Perlman's scenes only work because they have Margot Robbie as scene partners or as a contrast point.
Totally agree. The scene almost at the end where she's telling Ken that he needs to figure out who he is and as she speaking it becomes clear to her that she's also speaking to herself. Robbie was just so wonderful in that scene. And you're exactly right that without her anchoring the movie everything else is just crazy spinning tops. We've seen movies like that and they just don't hold up. This movie will hold up because at its heart is a lot of substance and empathy--and Margot Robbie embodies that perfectly.
Yes! I don't think many actresses could have really walked that line. (Gal Gadot and Amy Schumer were both considered, and I think this movie would be a mess with either of them in the role).
But there are some criminally underrated actresses who have the ability to ground movies that would otherwise be nuts with their performances. Sigourney Weaver immediately springs to mind. Andy McDowell in Groundhog Day is another example. Drew Barrymore has that quality too I think. None of them will ever have a shelf of Oscars, but pull them out of their roles and I think a lot of well-loved movie classics become total schlock.
Yeah, the movie was basically already the Ken movie. It was really interesting seeing a movie take on male identity formation from an explicitly feminist perspective.
And I don't know how Sonny could think it wasn't funny. There were some genuinely great jokes.
Well, Sonny, everyone's taste in entertainment is different. All I need to say about mine, I suppose, is that for some time now I've found it much more entertaining and enjoyable to read what you have to say about what's been coming out of Hollywood than to actually watch what's been coming out of Hollywood, though I have to admit that Oppenheimer's actually piqued my long dormant interest, and I just might stop yawning long enough to check it out at some point. Keep up the good work.
Thanks. Have seen a lot of clips from it on TV in various places. It does look like one hell of a good movie.
Let me return a small favor, if you're into watching any 'series' TV at all...2nd season of Dark Winds kicked off last night on AMC. A bit different from other such fare because of the 'reservation' setting and the characters and time period involved. A little over-the-top in a couple of minor ways, but interesting characters not half bad.
Your comment about overhearing the other moviegoer admiring the dresses in Barbie - remember when they used to make "women's pictures" in the 30's, 40's and 50's that a lot of the draw for women moviegoers to enjoy the clothes and see what Lana Turner, Joan Crawford, Norma Shearer, Barbara Stanwyck and Bette Davis were wearing in their pictures. It's still a draw, women love fashion! So, I think that Hollywood needs to remember that. I didn't love the movie either but I'm also happy for its success - and yes, Ryan Gosling is the best thing about the movie.
I'm reading the Oppenheimer biography now, little by little. I love it. Rarely do we get so deeply into the interior life of a person, as well as hear from people who knew him and, there's more! a thorough account of the larger world in which the person operated. The whole enchilada. Reading the book and the reviews and seeing a few previews makes me realize I must wait till I'm a little better put-together, emotionally speaking, than I am right now before seeing it. Hell, I was a little wrecked by Baz Luhmanns's Elvis. Hate to think what Oppenheimer could do. There's something about a person (usually/always a man) of huge talent and drive and divine spark colliding/colluding with his times to make history. Then it ends up sad. So much greatness laid to waste and so much pain. Anyway, maybe Barbie is a movie about a woman doll who unknowingly had an appointment with history; I can't say because I haven't seen it.
Of course you didn't like Barbie. It's not FOR you. Women are consumers too. The funny things is - YOU need Barbie to create your content - but Barbie - and that audience - does not need you ; )
For some of us the thought of universe that only contains the Marvel or iterations of middle age stars blowing up things is as horrifying is as horrifying a movie the future one that inclues the Eight Ball. Barbie? Great. And I want more Midge not Ken. Enough with bros.
Though I did like that they had the Ken’s perspective represented as well because if there are men watching it, it might help them make the connection that the way men are treated in the real world is the way that women are treated in the real world. As another commenter wrote, It also reinforces that patriarchy tends to harm men as much as women and that feminism may have created more opportunities for women but it also created unforeseen problems.
This is not a movie *for* women anymore than Black Panther or Hidden Figures is a movie *for* black people. Women may appreciate Barbie more than men and Black people may have a more personal connection to Black Panther or Hidden Figures but at heart, they’re all movies for humans who enjoy stories about the experiences of their fellow humans - experiences they may never have personally encountered.
Well said, and good connection to Black Panther and Hidden Figures.
From my perspective, anyone with some empathy and some connection to an outgroup (that they haven't buried) can appreciate a good story about the challenges of another outgroup. And really, that's a large majority of the population.
“Will this be yet another piece of evidence in Sarah Longwell’s long-running effort to paint me as indifferent to the interior lives of women? Yes. It probably will”
Yep. And she will be right about it. Just like she was right when you mocked her for believing that Tár was a straightforward manipulative villain instead of a complicated figure who we are meant to view as *both* an ambitious, inspirational genius and a troubled, manipulative liar/fraud. Also the relationship between her and her lesbian partner, Sharon, was complicated but she knew the type of person Tár was and what she was getting in to. There was a manipulative, transactional quality to it but there was real love there as well.
I haven’t seen ‘Barbie’ but I’m predisposed to thinking you missed a lot of the subtle subtext there as well because Greta Gerwig doesn’t do anything thoughtlessly or by accident:
Anyway, I’ve heard so many great things about this Oppenheimer discussion between you and Mona that being able to listen to that discussion is a large part of my motivation to go see it sooner rather than later.
Also thanks for the tip on “After Hours” - it’s been on my watch list since I saw the Ted Lasso parody.
Sonny, Sonny, Sonny, How could not not enjoy all the witty sarcasm truths in the Barbie movie? I feel for you man because you are missing out big time! Maybe you will get what it is all about years from now after you have a bit more life experience under your belt! XO From a fan
I live in a remote place, not near a movie theatre, so I am probably going to wait to see these movies when they are streaming, but I am so happy that Barbie exists. There are so few movies made primarily for the female audience. I feel like every five to ten years Hollywood makes one, there are lots of articles about "Wow, women will go to the movies if something is made that interests them," and then for next few years it is all things thought to appeal to 20-year-old males. I don't mind seeing some of those movies, I in fact have like a few of the Marvel movies, but it is nice to have something that seems to want to appeal to women, even if I am probably to old to be the target for this particular movie.
Sonny, I agree with Sarah that you probably aren't interested in movies that are about the interior lives of women, but not everything has to appeal to all people. It seems like the default is appealing to the previously mentioned 20-year-old male, and mixing that up is a good thing.
It's funny the Barbie movie reminded me of the Wonder Woman movie, not thematically or visually or storywise or anything, but because because both movies reminded me what it was like to just puzzle through the world girl/teenager/young woman and try to make sense of it all. And then I realized how few movies even try to address that in any way, despite that approximately 50% of the population will transition from girlhood to womanhood. (See the perennial popularity of any Little Women or quality Jane Austen adaptation)
Meanwhile in my lifetime, there have been like 5 different Spidermans pining for Mary Jane and learning that with great power comes great responsibility and 3 different Batmans coming to grips with the death of their parents.
I will second After Hours. For a comedy I remember experiencing more anxiety and fear than I expected. It’s a classical comedy since at the end everything gets back to normal.
I don't know where you live, Sonny. But, I will say that if you have access to Woods Comfort Systems, they have always treated us well. Sorry for your situation, it sounds like a nightmare. And here there be hot.
Ended up going with a local company and they’re getting us taken care of. Thankfully the AC was working as of yesterday so things are tolerable again.
Plenty of boomers are enjoying the Barbie movie also. We also know who Greta Gerwig is.
Did you need an I love Ricky after I love Lucy, Sonny? Sometimes a supporting character is just that.
Well no, because Lucy is funny!
Barbie is one of the most intellectual screenplays I have ever seen. If you don't get it; it's probably because you don't have a clue about the history of women or feminism. Sad for you.
LA Times had a great review of Barbie that says everything much better than I can. I loved how they ended their write-up:
“ 'Barbie' kicks up trouble by suggesting that women’s journey to self-actualization may include some mileage by men, especially if they also have brains and emotions and ambitions to be more than speed bumps in somebody else’s story. This movie, which allegedly hates men, sure enjoyed giving them a lot of emotional and dramaturgical real estate in the climactic act, including a Gene Kelly-esque dance number. 'I’m just Ken,' Gosling’s Ken croons in the movie’s showstopper number. 'Anywhere else I’d be a 10. Is it my destiny to live and die a life of blond fragility?' Anybody with enough self-respect to ask the question is on their way to an answer other than yes. "
I'm a boomer and I loved Barbie. It's smart, and funny as hell and entertaining. Most of the jokes land and the casting, choreography and set design are outstanding. There are stories and character arcs that surprise you--when was the last time a movie actually did something you didn't expect? Margo Robbie and Ryan Gosling couldn't be better--really, they nailed the entire cast.
I can't believe you wrote, "I hope the sequel is about Ken. Now there’s a character whose interior life is pretty interesting …" I read this and think we saw a completely different version of the movie. The Kens in Barbie have such a wonderful arch--it not only parallels what women have gone through since forever, it shows how men are damaged by patriarchy too. I also look at the right-wing freak out about masculinity and think only people who haven't seen the movie, or people who keep their eyes shut when anything challenges their preconceived beliefs can think it was man-hating.
By the end, men and women embrace the entirety of themselves, regardless of gender roles, celebrating masculinity and femininity as traits that can be cherished in either gender. What a great message.
It not a perfect movie, I know you liked this, but I thought all the Will Farrell parts could be cut with very little determinate to the final product. I'm also not happy that we'll now get dozens of Mattel branded movies that won't come anywhere close to this, but judging Barbie on its merits alone I give the overall experience 4.5 stars.
Just finished watching it. Your review is spot on! It sounds like it was written by someone who actually understands nuance and has a good sense of the complexity about gender roles and stereotypes that occur in patriarchal societies and why a lot if it is harmful (for all genders) but it also touches on the new problems created by feminism’s attempt to fix the issues of the past. Nothing here is simple or what it seems.
If you’re thinking about whether not to see it, listen to JoyousNM and skip Sonny’s original review which is “horribly wrong but still interesting to read”. It paints the movie as “a 2 hour long ad for a Mattel doll which is bad enough but the jokes weren’t even all that funny for a comedy!” He agrees that you might like it if you’re a ‘progressive-minded working mom millennial type that wants to be reassured that’s it’s still OK to buy your kid a Barbie but otherwise you you’d probably hate it. Like Joy, I honestly wonder if we both saw the same film!
Just saw it yesterday with the family. I liked it and am a progressive-minded working dad X'er type with a son and daughter who were never into Barbie. Maybe that first marker is necessary for enjoyment (and if so, go society!), but there is a lot to like about that movie.
And those offended by it are telling a hell of a lot about themselves, because I didn't find it particularly super feminist rather than fairly accurate about how things are. I might quibble that we've made more progress than is shown, but not a lot more, and that's kinda the point. And again, if that issue is an existential threat to a person rather than a mild quibble, well its rather telling.
I read Cary Elwes' book about filming The Princess Bride and he said that Robin Wright didn't get enough credit for her performance because people didn't understand how hard it was for her to be "the straight man" in a movie that contained all these outlandish characters and lines and scenarios. She didn't have any of the "quotable" lines from the movie really, but without her performance the whole movie would have fallen apart. It wouldn't have been grounded in anything.
I think Margot Robbie's performance is the same thing. She did a spectacular job and while Ryan Gosling's performance is flashier that doesn't make it "better" necessarily. Because without Robbie grounding every scene she's in, The Kens and Alan and the more outlandish Babries wouldn't seem funny at all. Margot Robbie never steals the scene, but she makes every funny scene in that movie possible by being the heart of the movie. Ken's funniest moments, the Mattel board room, America's monologue, and Rhea Perlman's scenes only work because they have Margot Robbie as scene partners or as a contrast point.
Totally agree. The scene almost at the end where she's telling Ken that he needs to figure out who he is and as she speaking it becomes clear to her that she's also speaking to herself. Robbie was just so wonderful in that scene. And you're exactly right that without her anchoring the movie everything else is just crazy spinning tops. We've seen movies like that and they just don't hold up. This movie will hold up because at its heart is a lot of substance and empathy--and Margot Robbie embodies that perfectly.
Yes! I don't think many actresses could have really walked that line. (Gal Gadot and Amy Schumer were both considered, and I think this movie would be a mess with either of them in the role).
But there are some criminally underrated actresses who have the ability to ground movies that would otherwise be nuts with their performances. Sigourney Weaver immediately springs to mind. Andy McDowell in Groundhog Day is another example. Drew Barrymore has that quality too I think. None of them will ever have a shelf of Oscars, but pull them out of their roles and I think a lot of well-loved movie classics become total schlock.
Yeah, the movie was basically already the Ken movie. It was really interesting seeing a movie take on male identity formation from an explicitly feminist perspective.
And I don't know how Sonny could think it wasn't funny. There were some genuinely great jokes.
Wanted to share this critique from The Atlantic since it's a divergent, though I think complementary, review to yours: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2023/07/barbie-movie-ken/674852/
Well, Sonny, everyone's taste in entertainment is different. All I need to say about mine, I suppose, is that for some time now I've found it much more entertaining and enjoyable to read what you have to say about what's been coming out of Hollywood than to actually watch what's been coming out of Hollywood, though I have to admit that Oppenheimer's actually piqued my long dormant interest, and I just might stop yawning long enough to check it out at some point. Keep up the good work.
Highly recommending Oppenheimer.
Thanks. Have seen a lot of clips from it on TV in various places. It does look like one hell of a good movie.
Let me return a small favor, if you're into watching any 'series' TV at all...2nd season of Dark Winds kicked off last night on AMC. A bit different from other such fare because of the 'reservation' setting and the characters and time period involved. A little over-the-top in a couple of minor ways, but interesting characters not half bad.
Movie is my job. (This is a BARBIE joke, though again it’s amusing and memorable because it’s delivered by Gosling’s Ken!)
Your comment about overhearing the other moviegoer admiring the dresses in Barbie - remember when they used to make "women's pictures" in the 30's, 40's and 50's that a lot of the draw for women moviegoers to enjoy the clothes and see what Lana Turner, Joan Crawford, Norma Shearer, Barbara Stanwyck and Bette Davis were wearing in their pictures. It's still a draw, women love fashion! So, I think that Hollywood needs to remember that. I didn't love the movie either but I'm also happy for its success - and yes, Ryan Gosling is the best thing about the movie.
I'm reading the Oppenheimer biography now, little by little. I love it. Rarely do we get so deeply into the interior life of a person, as well as hear from people who knew him and, there's more! a thorough account of the larger world in which the person operated. The whole enchilada. Reading the book and the reviews and seeing a few previews makes me realize I must wait till I'm a little better put-together, emotionally speaking, than I am right now before seeing it. Hell, I was a little wrecked by Baz Luhmanns's Elvis. Hate to think what Oppenheimer could do. There's something about a person (usually/always a man) of huge talent and drive and divine spark colliding/colluding with his times to make history. Then it ends up sad. So much greatness laid to waste and so much pain. Anyway, maybe Barbie is a movie about a woman doll who unknowingly had an appointment with history; I can't say because I haven't seen it.
Of course you didn't like Barbie. It's not FOR you. Women are consumers too. The funny things is - YOU need Barbie to create your content - but Barbie - and that audience - does not need you ; )
I’m sad again. Don’t tell my boyfriend. It’s not what he’s made for...” ;)
For some of us the thought of universe that only contains the Marvel or iterations of middle age stars blowing up things is as horrifying is as horrifying a movie the future one that inclues the Eight Ball. Barbie? Great. And I want more Midge not Ken. Enough with bros.
Though I did like that they had the Ken’s perspective represented as well because if there are men watching it, it might help them make the connection that the way men are treated in the real world is the way that women are treated in the real world. As another commenter wrote, It also reinforces that patriarchy tends to harm men as much as women and that feminism may have created more opportunities for women but it also created unforeseen problems.
This is not a movie *for* women anymore than Black Panther or Hidden Figures is a movie *for* black people. Women may appreciate Barbie more than men and Black people may have a more personal connection to Black Panther or Hidden Figures but at heart, they’re all movies for humans who enjoy stories about the experiences of their fellow humans - experiences they may never have personally encountered.
Well said, and good connection to Black Panther and Hidden Figures.
From my perspective, anyone with some empathy and some connection to an outgroup (that they haven't buried) can appreciate a good story about the challenges of another outgroup. And really, that's a large majority of the population.
Amen!
“Will this be yet another piece of evidence in Sarah Longwell’s long-running effort to paint me as indifferent to the interior lives of women? Yes. It probably will”
Yep. And she will be right about it. Just like she was right when you mocked her for believing that Tár was a straightforward manipulative villain instead of a complicated figure who we are meant to view as *both* an ambitious, inspirational genius and a troubled, manipulative liar/fraud. Also the relationship between her and her lesbian partner, Sharon, was complicated but she knew the type of person Tár was and what she was getting in to. There was a manipulative, transactional quality to it but there was real love there as well.
I haven’t seen ‘Barbie’ but I’m predisposed to thinking you missed a lot of the subtle subtext there as well because Greta Gerwig doesn’t do anything thoughtlessly or by accident:
https://youtu.be/s2rNnOGfmv0
Anyway, I’ve heard so many great things about this Oppenheimer discussion between you and Mona that being able to listen to that discussion is a large part of my motivation to go see it sooner rather than later.
Also thanks for the tip on “After Hours” - it’s been on my watch list since I saw the Ted Lasso parody.
Your conversation with Mona was good
Sonny, Sonny, Sonny, How could not not enjoy all the witty sarcasm truths in the Barbie movie? I feel for you man because you are missing out big time! Maybe you will get what it is all about years from now after you have a bit more life experience under your belt! XO From a fan
I live in a remote place, not near a movie theatre, so I am probably going to wait to see these movies when they are streaming, but I am so happy that Barbie exists. There are so few movies made primarily for the female audience. I feel like every five to ten years Hollywood makes one, there are lots of articles about "Wow, women will go to the movies if something is made that interests them," and then for next few years it is all things thought to appeal to 20-year-old males. I don't mind seeing some of those movies, I in fact have like a few of the Marvel movies, but it is nice to have something that seems to want to appeal to women, even if I am probably to old to be the target for this particular movie.
Sonny, I agree with Sarah that you probably aren't interested in movies that are about the interior lives of women, but not everything has to appeal to all people. It seems like the default is appealing to the previously mentioned 20-year-old male, and mixing that up is a good thing.
It's funny the Barbie movie reminded me of the Wonder Woman movie, not thematically or visually or storywise or anything, but because because both movies reminded me what it was like to just puzzle through the world girl/teenager/young woman and try to make sense of it all. And then I realized how few movies even try to address that in any way, despite that approximately 50% of the population will transition from girlhood to womanhood. (See the perennial popularity of any Little Women or quality Jane Austen adaptation)
Meanwhile in my lifetime, there have been like 5 different Spidermans pining for Mary Jane and learning that with great power comes great responsibility and 3 different Batmans coming to grips with the death of their parents.